Mormonism LIVE: 055: Christmas & The Historical Jesus

Bill Reel and RFM take a look at the Historical Jesus and hit on the main points that Biblical criticism brings into focus and once they are done, your Christmases may never be the same.

Jesus son of Mary – Illegitimate birth. Mark infers. The early church theologian Origen (d. 251 CE) has a polemical tract in which he writes an apologetic for Jesus’ virgin birth against Celsus, a pagan skeptic of Christianity (around 178 CE). Celsus was a proponent of the idea that the virgin birth story was a fiction invented by Jesus, when the truth was (as he apparently believed) Jesus was the biological product of his mother and a Roman soldier named Pantera. Also Virgin births were a common trope and polemic device in ancient mythology.

  • Manger – ACU scholar Stephen Carlson writes that the word “kataluma” (often translated “inn”) refers to guest quarters. Most likely, Joseph and Mary stayed with family but the guest room was too small for childbirth and hence Mary gave birth in the main room of the house where animal mangers could also be found. use the links below from Dan McllellanManger/Inn – Scripture Translation Supervisor for the LDS Church, PhD in theology and religion https://www.tiktok.com/@maklelan/video/7037619189456358703?lang=en&is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1

 

More on the nativity – Daniel McClellan https://www.tiktok.com/@maklelan/video/7037685245172256046?lang=en&is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1 Traditional Account of the nativity – Daniel McClellan Scripture Translation Supervisor for the LDS Church, PhD in theology and religionhttps://www.tiktok.com/@maklelan/video/7040144974750731566?lang=en&is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1 Inconsistencies in the narrative – Matthew and Luke, the only Christian gospels which give us the virgin birth story, contain problematic details-both internally and in comparison to each other. For example, it’s been pointed out often that Luke’s dating of the census (while Quirinius was governor of Syria) in Luke is problematic. There are also difficulties when the accounts are compared to each other. The two genealogies don’t exactly reinforce each other and there are a number of striking differences when compared alongside each other–in particular the migration to Egypt in Matthew (2:13-14) which is completely absent from Luke. In Luke’s account, Mary and Joseph take Jesus home immediately to Nazareth (2:39-40), with no reference to a flight to Egypt or a conflict with Herod. Live in Bethlehem? – According to the Matthean infancy narrative, Joseph and Mary are natives to Bethlehem! They live in their house there! Houses would be part of patriarchal compounds with as many as 50 to 100 people.  There is no Lukan manger mentioned, and definitely no stables! The author “Matthew” expects his audience to understand this, being that he writes for people equipped with culturally-appropriate auxiliary background information. We Western Christians, reading with spurious familiarity, are blind to this. Did the Holy Family go from Bethlehem to Jerusalem and then straight back to Nazareth, as “Luke” tells us? Or did they reside in Bethlehem, give birth to Jesus there, live about two years there until the magi come, then flee to Egypt, then some years after go to a place they’ve never been to before and take up residence there, as “Matthew” says? (No need to read the following but in case someone asks why 2 years – Notably, the magi visit Jesus in a house (not an inn or stable) and their visit is as late as two years after the birth. Matthew 2:16 records King Herod’s orders to kill baby boys up to the age of two based on the report about Jesus’s age from the magi. This delay is why most Christian churches celebrate the visit of the magi on “Epiphany” or January 6) the slaughter of the innocents – given that Bethlehem probably had fewer than 1,000 residents, it’s possible the slaughter of the innocents involved just three or four babies, Witherington said. “We’re not talking about streets lined with dead babies,” Witherington told Live Science. In a world full of brutality and violence, it’s not clear the death of a few no-name babies in a sleepy village would have made the history books. Erroneous History about a Census – A similar situation exists with the Lukan census of the whole world when Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:1–2). This census was presumably made when Herod the Great reigned over Judea (1:5), and who was alive when Jesus was born and for some time after. Copious records exist from the time of Caesar Augustus’ reign (27 BCE—14 CE). These records describe many events during that reign, particularly the most important. None of them mention anything about a worldwide census. And consider how “Luke” describes this census: people must return to the home of their ancestors. Consider what the Empire would look like in order to accomplish that—throngs of millions migrating all over for the census. And yet all historical records remain silent on it? In his own history, Augustus himself fails to mention this achievement! That’s simply not credible.

 

RESOURCES: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/messyinspirations/2019/12/history-discrepancies-jesus-birth/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/unsystematictheology/2016/03/six-problems-with-the-virgin-birth-biblical-and-historical-perspective/

 

https://theconversation.com/what-history-really-tells-us-about-the-birth-of-jesus-89444

 

http://www.paulonpaul.org/jesus/narr_2_birth.htm

 

https://www.livescience.com/49228-nativity-story-facts-history.html https://tabletalkmagazine.com/posts/the-controversial-birth-of-jesus/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/messyinspirations/2019/12/different-jesus-birth-stories/

 

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Mormonism LIVE: 051: Denver Snuffer

Wednesday Nov. 24th, RFM and Bill sat down with Denver Snuffer and discuss his life and the happenings around the Christian fellowships of “the Remnants” movement. Denver Snuffer is an author of Restorationist devotional books, a lecturer, a speculative theologian, and a revelator to fellowships of the remnants movement, a spiritual movement in schism with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). The movement has a few thousand adherents, many of them members or former members of the LDS Church. He was excommunicated by the LDS Church in 2013 for refusing to cease publication of his 2011 book, Passing the Heavenly Gift which challenges many points of LDS orthodoxy. He subsequently has been identified as a prophet by many, and several of his teachings have been canonized as scripture.

RESOURCES:

https://denversnuffer.com/

https://medium.com/the-seer-stone/mormonism-has-a-new-religion-and-it-has-a-prophet-named-denver-snuffer-282f5e24df1e

https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-holds-special-meeting-to-denounce-false-prophet

http://ldspioneerarchitecture.blogspot.com/2016/02/architecture-highlights-prayer-circle.html

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Mormonism LIVE: 050: Bigfoot, Cain, & Prophetic Mormon Mythmaking

Preparing on a short week with our focus on Thrive & the Midnight Mormon’s Debate with RFM has us selecting an interesting topic that is light and fun. So Wednesday November 17th RFM and Bill Reel dive into the old folklore surrounding Bigfoot being none other than Cain. The origination story, and how Prophets, Seer’s, and Revelators have turned a strange story into some sort of pseudo doctrine, How FairMormon really screwed the pooch, and how Mormonism’s and Sasquatch’s narratives intertwine in other strange places you may not have seen coming.

RESOURCES:

Is Cain Bigfoot? The Truth Behind 5 Mormon Folklore Stories – https://www.ldsliving.com/is-cain-bigfoot-the-truth-behind-5-mormon-folklore-stories/s/64534

Awareness of racism eased Mormon folk tales regarding Cain, Bigfoot https://www.standard.net/lifestyle/2015/oct/18/awareness-of-racism-eased-mormon-folk-tales-regarding-cain-big/

Bigfoot In Mormon lore … is Bigfoot Cain?
https://utahstories.com/2019/07/bigfoot-in-mormon-lore-is-bigfoot-cain/

Journal of Mormon History Vol. 33, No. 3, 2007 (pg 74) https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1051&context=mormonhistory

Question: Does Cain still roam the earth, and does this account for stories about “Bigfoot”? – FAIR https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Does_Cain_still_roam_the_earth,_and_does_this_account_for_stories_about_%22Bigfoot%22%3F

Mormon theory of Bigfoot traces monster to Garden of Eden
https://www.syracuse.com/strangecny/2008/02/morman_theory_of_bigfoot_trace.html

The Mormon Bigfoot Genesis Theory – 10 Zen Monkeys
http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2008/02/05/the-mormon-bigfoot-genesis-theory/

When Cain Appeared to Joseph Fielding Smith’s Brother & Talked with an Apostle
https://www.ldsliving.com/when-cain-appeared-to-joseph-fielding-smiths-brother-talked-with-an-apostle/s/83424

The Mark of the Curse: Lingering Racism in Mormon Doctrine?
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/45228364.pdf

Poems 476–507 – Eliza R. Snow Lexicon https://erslexicon.wordpress.com/poems-476-507/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/11/Cain-Bigfoot-Mathew-Bowman.pdf

https://archive.org/details/lifeofdavidwpatt00wilsrich/page/44/mode/2up

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/45228364.pdf http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/DPatten.html (nothing about Cain)

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/c7b775e0-ef6c-4ebe-b205-f159d8f4cdd7/0/1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5811ffxhgbph5v/MS_603-David_W_Patten_journal-ORIGINAL.pdf?dl=0 (Nothing about Cain)

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/51730/p

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Mormonism LIVE: 046: Suicide Within Mormon History & Theology

WARNING: We will be dealing with the sensitive topic of Self Harm. If you have self harm ideation and are triggered by discussion around such, please skip this episode in lieu of another.

In Tonight’s Episode Bill Reel and RFM will take a deep historical dive into the topic of Suicide within Mormon Theology and take a look at how the LDS Church has approached this issue giving historical context. What we learn is that LDS Leaders and Mormon Doctrine have had some ups and downs dealing with approaching such in a healthy way with healthy attitudes. Like everything else in Mormonism, this issue too is messy.

RESOURCES:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1988/03/suicide-some-things-we-know-and-some-we-do-not?lang=eng

https://www.deseret.com/2018/7/2/20648210/lds-apostle-totally-false-that-suicide-leads-to-permanent-hell

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Suicide

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/suicide?lang=eng

https://www.heraldextra.com/news/2015/sep/20/church-teachings-on-suicide-have-changed-through-the-years/

https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-apostle-speaks-about-church-responsibility-in-mormon-lgbt-suicides-for-first-time

https://www.mrm.org/suicide-and-mormonism

https://www.pewforum.org/2013/11/21/religious-groups-views-on-end-of-life-issues/

https://deseretbook.com/p/suicide-some-things-we-know-do-not-m-russell-ballard-437?variant_id=112173-paperback

http://mormonscholar.org/an-old-sectarian-notion-lds-teachings-on-suicide-sin-and-damnation/

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6/6b/1958-Mormon_Doctrine-Bruce_R_McConkie.pdf (Agency & Suicides)

https://lds365.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Preventing-Suicide-Responding-After-Loss-LDS.pdf

https://childfriendlyfaith.org/2019/06/the-homophobic-teachings-of-the-mormon-church-killed-my-son/

https://www.dropbox.com/s/24uta1hgckvtzk0/MStar_19213.pdf?dl=0 (Millenial Star)

https://archive.org/details/juvenileinstructor1993/page/352/mode/2up?view=theater&q=juvenile+instructor

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/10/13/22672169/are-latter-day-saint-lgbtq-youths-less-suicidal-a-new-study-asks-the-question-mormon

https://dsamh.utah.gov/pdf/sharp/2019/State%20of%20Utah%20Report.pdf

https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154136&start=10

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline We can all help prevent suicide. The Lifeline provides 24/7, free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for professionals.
1-800-273-8255

Tonight’s Episode will be dealing with the sensitive topic of suicide. If this topic might be triggering or such ideation is present. Please skip this episode and return back for next week’s. While we have consulted best practices National Suicide Prevention Lifeline We can all help prevent suicide. The Lifeline provides 24/7, free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for professionals. 1-800-273-8255

 

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/talk-to-someone-now/

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Mormonism LIVE: 044: Straw Man vs Steel Man: A Lesson In Rational Thinking

Today we take a look at the Logical Fallacy of the Straw Man argument and juxtapose it against what it means to Steel Man someone. A Straw Man argument is when you misrepresent someone’s argument to make it easier to attack. We define a Straw Man argument, share an example, discuss how to incorporate good faith in a disagreement by instead choosing to Steel Man the disagreement, and then show how Mormonism holds up to the actual argument being made when that argument is represented fairly.

RESOURCES:

 

https://youtu.be/zYVBA8n9-pU?t=25

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/08/post-nuanced-view-church-gods-plan/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/10/premium-holy-ghost-conundrum/

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/broadcasts/face-to-face/oaks-ballard?cid=HP_SU_19-11-2017_dPFD_fBCAST_xLIDyL1-B_&lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/apostles-answer-questions-about-standards-doubts-during-ysa-face-to-face?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2004/10/be-not-deceived?lang=eng

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual-2017/chapter-19-doctrine-and-covenants-50?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-recognize-and-understand-the-spirit?lang=eng

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/good-news-from-god/recognize-true-worshippers/

https://www.learnreligions.com/how-to-find-a-church-700487

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycUvC9s4VYA

https://youtu.be/lwkh_aliF3E

 

https://youtu.be/UJMSU8Qj6Go

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2002/10/the-marvelous-foundation-of-our-faith?lang=eng

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/07/12/commentary-latter-day/

 

https://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/Feb%2015%2019798%20First%20Presidency%20Gods%20Love%20for%20all%20mankind.html

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/12/premium-lucy-walker-spiritual-experiences/

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Mormonism LIVE: 043: Modern Day Mormon Danites

operandi is at work today inside Modern Mormonism through the SCMC, and other people and processes that work to ensure that believing members are kept at arms length from people, voices, and information that is both accurate and contradictory to the inaccurate but faithful dominant narrative.

RESOURCES:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danite

https://benjaminepark.com/

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/sensationalism-a-one-sided-perspective/

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/09/10/jana-riess-why-did-byu/

https://web.archive.org/web/20210120130850/https:/mi.byu.edu/scholars/benjamin-park/

https://mi.byu.edu/scholars/benjamin-park/

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Mormonism LIVE! 040: Symphony Of LGBT Mis-Direction & Mr. Holland Dopus

Since its inception in 1830 LDS Leaders have been consistent at one thing. While lip service is given to being a Church that has Prophets, Seers, and Revelators who claim to speak for God and give direction from on high, these men seem to always be behind the times, stating outdated false misconceptions and teaching false and at times harmful rhetoric. No where can this be more easily recognized than on the LGBT issue. But….. sadly It doesn’t stop there.

RESOURCES:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg36L1989Ss&ab_channel=BYUSpeeches

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ay5dk9mky0p0sm7/OnTheRecord7-27.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9z40tx8wd9rt9m/homosexuality.pdf?dl=0

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/interview-oaks-wickman-same-gender-attraction

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/same-sex-attraction?lang=eng

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/explaining-religious-freedom-and-lgbt-rights

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Mormonism LIVE: 039: When Mission Presidents Behave Badly

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Mormonism LIVE: 038: The Second Anointing

In Mormonism the very elite of membership including Stake Presidents, Mission Presidents, along with Seventies and the top 15 along with all their wives receive a secret ritual that confers to them that their “Calling and Election” has been made sure. What is this ritual? What do we know about it? How has the church framed it in their theology? and why do only a select few receive it? This and more on this week’s episode. RESOURCES:

 

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V16N01_12.pdf https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmyldshistory.blogspot.com%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0YbteylqfjyBp3P_E8vU6c3WdGzGrCsOldzbCteN1jHdANClh8-TNfGPQ&h=AT0n2SeXpCqsisJ4BybEBV99LV5oOGWdD4p1HtYeYqON6tSYCRjkkxg7aHU-9f2gtlBVUUcy0PkhgbhWw6H5-T9wuBaTiuWCo1PeaxDh-KypeEmBY6CoYcW_Kl-seflSHqc

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_anointing

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel/chapter-19?lang=eng Do not attempt in any way to discuss or answer questions about the second anointing.

 

www.mormonstories.org/podcast/tom-phillips-and-the-second-anointing/

 

http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/secondendowment.htm

 

https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon508.htm

 

http://archives.lib.byu.edu/repositories/14/archival_objects/255732

 

http://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Second_Anointing

 

http://www.fact-index.com/s/se/second_anointing.html https://www.lds-mormon.com/2danointing-shtml/

 

https://blog.mrm.org/2013/01/the-second-anointing-of-modern-day-mormonism/ https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Calling_and_Election https://www.jstor.org/stable/44368772

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Mormonism LIVE: 035: Will The Real Apostle Please Stand Up !

In this week’s episode of Mormonism Live, we will investigate the integrity of the not only the President of the Church but also the integrity of the Quorum of the 12. Once one grasps the systemic issue within LDS Leadership, One’s trust in them becomes anything other guaranteed.

RESOURCES:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2016-01-1000-worldwide-devotional-january-2016?lang=eng 45:35 – 46:38 Time Stamp

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/04/10/mormon-land-lds-churchs/ 4:47 – 5:46 Time Stamp

In his memoirs, An Abundant Life, Elder Hugh B. Brown explained “the Apostolic Charge” that every apostle is apparently given upon admittance to the Q12. It reads as follows: “Always be willing to subjugate his own thoughts and accept the majority opinion not only to vote for it but to act as though it were his own original opinion after it has been approved by the majority of the council of the twelve and the First Presidency.”

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Mormonism LIVE: 034: Ask Us Almost Anything & More

This weeks episode will feature RFM and Bill Reel unveiling a new show under the Mormonism Discussion Inc. umbrella and some reflection on last weeks episode regarding Nelson’s flight and we touch on the passing of Robert Ritner and spend the last half of the Show doing an AMA. RESOURCES: https://backyardprofessor.org/ http://fornspollfira.blogspot.com/2021/07/robert-kreich-ritner-jr-1953-2021.html https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/general-conference-saturday-evening-session-update

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Mormonism LIVE: 033: President Nelson’s Flight of Death

Today We explore a story President Nelson has told for years about a flight he was on in the 1970’s. He reports the plane’s engine exploding, the wing catching fire, a death spiral by the plane, the chaos aboard, and the plane’s landing in a farmer’s field. This story had many questioning the truthfulness of his account but there was never a smoking gun to get to the truth of the matter………. until now.

WHERE PRESIDENT NELSON OR OTHERS HAVE TOLD THE STORY

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1992/05/doors-of-death?lang=eng

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/president-nelson-argentina-2019

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/3/28/22355277/president-nelson-invites-all-to-feel-the-peace-and-hope-of-easter-by-focusing-on-the-savior

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=EMwKxmTLaCs&ab_channel=TheChurchofJesusChristofLatter-daySaints

Russell M. Nelson, From Heart to Heart: An Autobiography (Salt Lake City: Nelson, 1979)

Russell M. Nelson: Father, Surgeon, Apostle – Spencer J Condie: Author

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/1994/06/most-important?lang=eng Russell M. Nelson, The Gateway We Call Death (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1995)

https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/2004-09-18/gospel-principles-vital-to-correct-living-94995

https://www.deseret.com/2006/4/15/19948411/death-is-part-of-life-ex-surgeon-says

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2018-09-03/president-nelson-delivers-historic-message-to-dominican-latter-day-saints-in-spanish-8931

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/president-nelson-shares-5-lessons-life-has-taught-me-with-49000-in-safeco-field?lang=eng

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2018-10-26/president-nelson-finds-church-thriving-in-uruguay-thanks-to-multiple-generations-of-members-missionaries-156122

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/president-nelson-argentina-2019

THE CLAIMS PRESIDENT NELSON HAS MADE THAT WERE RED FLAGS

1.) One Engine on a small Two Engine plane Exploded.
2.) Said Engine caught fire.
3.) In the Explosion flammable material was spread to the plane and the plane itself was on fire.
4.) The plane did a “Death Spiral” which extinguished the fire
5.) The Pilot “turned on the Other Engine”
6.) The plane landed in a “Farmer’s Field”

THE FACTS THAT ALLOWED OTHERS TO NARROW WHAT TO LOOK FOR

 1.) The Date of the flight was reported as November 12, 1976
2.) He was flying from SLC to St. George to attend the inauguration of W. Rolfe Kerr as the president of Dixie College.
3.) Anytime a plane incurs a malfunction or there is a mechanical flight issue or pilot error the Law requires such to be recorded. The Explosion would necessitate a publicly available recorded log report. The plane on fire would necessitate a publicly available recorded log report. The Death Spiral would necessitate a publicly available recorded log report. The landing in a Farmer’s Field
would necessitate a publicly available recorded log report.

IF THE STORY OCCURRED THE WAY PRESIDENT NELSON HAS REPORTED, THERE ABSOLUTELY WOULD BE A REPORT THAT IS PUBLICLY AVAILABLE. MOST FABRICATIONS HINGE ON SOME GRAIN OF TRUTH, SO MANY IN THE POST-MORMON COMMUNITY WENT INTO DETECTIVE MODE.

THE FLIGHT REPORT FOR THIS FLIGHT WAS FINALLY LOCATED (IT WAS DIFFICULT TO FIND DUE TO THE MUNDANE ISSUES INCURRED THAT SEEMINGLY CONTRADICT NELSON’S STORY )



https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/wNa3AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA1090&dq=skywest+incidents+1976

1.) Engine never exploded and continued to run though rough
2.) There was no Engine Fire.
3.) The Plane itself was never on fire
4.) The Other Engine was never off
4.) The plane made a “Precautionary landing at the airport in Delta Utah and not a farmer’s field
5.) There are other smaller issues with number of passengers, length of flight, cutting fuel line to both engines, and the date of the flight but we grant some benefit of the doubt for distorted memory.

If the Church or its defenders want to claim the conclusion that this flight one day earlier is NOT the flight President Nelson is speaking about, then the burden of proof is on them to provide the evidence. To claim there was another “SKY WEST” flight also going from SLC TO SAINT GEORGE” that had “WORSE ISSUES” “ONE DAY LATER”, then provide the “MANDATORY PUBLICLY AVAILABLE FLIGHT REPORT” of said flight. Without such, said conclusion by the defenders would require more conjecture and allowances.


The Plane believed to be the One Nelson rode that day

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